2003 Ram DC front drive shafts to save gas?

[John]

Since the front axles are always turning, is there any reason you
couldn't disconnect the front drive shafts and axles to save gas? I
never use 4x4 any more.

What was Dodge thinking when they decided to get rid of locking hubs??

[TheSnoMan]

Post by John
Since the front axles are always turning, is there any reason you
couldn't disconnect the front drive shafts and axles to save gas? I
never use 4x4 any more.
What was Dodge thinking when they decided to get rid of locking hubs??

You could remove the front drive shaft but axles shafts would still turn
and so would ring gear. Dodge did it his way to save money and to make
engaging 4wd a no brainer because the front axle is always turning so it
is easier to sync it with Tcase output. Dodge scraped hubs in the 70's
and broguht them back in the 80's then scrapped them again several years
ago. VERY poor judgement indeed.

------------------
www.thesnoman.com

[John]

I was planning on removing the axles too. I'm not sure if the front
differential will leak oil at the output shafts once the yokes are
removed. Is it safe to say the yoke will not stay in without the axles
in place?

[TheSnoMan]

Post by John
I was planning on removing the axles too. I'm not sure if the front
differential will leak oil at the output shafts once the yokes are
removed. Is it safe to say the yoke will not stay in without the axles
in place?

The wheel yoke will stay in place but the diff would leak oil like a
sieve whithout axles in place. If you are serious, you should look for a
tube axle used in some models or Dodge Pickups with 2wd (3500 models in
the 90's) as it would be eaier to mod and de mod the truck that way if
you got a complete front tube axle.


-----------------
www.thesnoman.com

[Tom Lawrence]

Post by John
I was planning on removing the axles too. I'm not sure if the front
differential will leak oil at the output shafts once the yokes are
removed. Is it safe to say the yoke will not stay in without the axles
in place?

Why did you get a 4x4 in the first place then?

If you're serious about this, the you need to remove the axles, remove the
U-joints, then re-install the outer stub shafts, because they hold the wheel
bearings together. You'll also want to remove the differential from the
case, drain the fluid, and make some kind of rubber plugs for the axle
tubes, so you don't load them up with road crud (assuming that at some point
you'll want to put this all back together).

If you save 2MPG, I'll be impressed.

[BDK]

Post by Tom Lawrence

Post by John
I was planning on removing the axles too. I'm not sure if the front
differential will leak oil at the output shafts once the yokes are
removed. Is it safe to say the yoke will not stay in without the axles
in place?

Why did you get a 4x4 in the first place then?
If you're serious about this, the you need to remove the axles, remove the
U-joints, then re-install the outer stub shafts, because they hold the wheel
bearings together. You'll also want to remove the differential from the
case, drain the fluid, and make some kind of rubber plugs for the axle
tubes, so you don't load them up with road crud (assuming that at some point
you'll want to put this all back together).
If you save 2MPG, I'll be impressed.

People did all this stuff years ago, a friend butchered his 78 Power
Wagon's front end for a whopping 1.2 or so MPG. Insane at 3 bucks a
gallon, even at 5 bucks, it's still crazy.


BDK

[TheSnoMan]

Post by BDK

Post by Tom Lawrence

Post by John
I was planning on removing the axles too. I'm not sure if the front
differential will leak oil at the output shafts once the yokes are
removed. Is it safe to say the yoke will not stay in without the axles
in place?

Why did you get a 4x4 in the first place then?
If you're serious about this, the you need to remove the axles, remove the
U-joints, then re-install the outer stub shafts, because they hold the wheel
bearings together. You'll also want to remove the differential from the
case, drain the fluid, and make some kind of rubber plugs for the axle
tubes, so you don't load them up with road crud (assuming that at some point
you'll want to put this all back together).
If you save 2MPG, I'll be impressed.

People did all this stuff years ago, a friend butchered his 78 Power
Wagon's front end for a whopping 1.2 or so MPG. Insane at 3 bucks a
gallon, even at 5 bucks, it's still crazy.
BDK

The "insane" part was Dodge building the truck without lockout hubs to
save a few busk and costs. There is NO excuse for a new 4x4 truck to ne
sold with no front axle disconnects. YOu do aslo gain smoother and
quieter operation because you will no longer have a front axle spinning
up in the truck and the MPG gain will be a lot higher in winter when
front axle lube is thick from cold.

[Tom Lawrence]

up in the truck and the MPG gain will be a lot higher in winter when front
axle lube is thick from cold.

Isn't winter when you want the 4x4 more than any other time?

I believe Dynatrac now offers a manual hub conversion kit for these trucks.
If you're concerned about MPG, that would be the way to go, rather than
disassemble the front end (because, presumably, you bought the 4WD because
you felt you'd need it at some point).

[John]

I just moved from the northeast to the southeast desert where it hasn't
snowed since the ice age. You make 2 MPG sound petty, but that's
another 70 miles per tank of range. At $3/gallon and 20,000 miles per
year, that's a significant amount of savings every year.

[Tom Lawrence]

Post by John
I just moved from the northeast to the southeast desert where it hasn't
snowed since the ice age. You make 2 MPG sound petty, but that's
another 70 miles per tank of range. At $3/gallon and 20,000 miles per
year, that's a significant amount of savings every year.

Assuming 18MPG before, and 20MPG after, 20K per year, and $3/gal, you'll
save $330 a year, or less than a dollar per day. I was assuming you wanted
to remove the front axles for a while, then put them back in when you
thought you'd need them, then take them out again, etc. If you want to do a
semi-permanent 2WD conversion, then it starts making a little more sense. I
still don't think you're going to get a solid 2MPG increase, especially
since you won't experience any of the cold-weather operation that thickens
up the gear oil.

By the way - where's the desert in the south-east? :)

[John]

Ooops, sorry, I meant the Southwest, In Arizona.

[TheSnoMan]

Post by Tom Lawrence

Post by John
I just moved from the northeast to the southeast desert where it hasn't
snowed since the ice age. You make 2 MPG sound petty, but that's
another 70 miles per tank of range. At $3/gallon and 20,000 miles per
year, that's a significant amount of savings every year.

Assuming 18MPG before, and 20MPG after, 20K per year, and $3/gal, you'll
save $330 a year, or less than a dollar per day. I was assuming you wanted
to remove the front axles for a while, then put them back in when you
thought you'd need them, then take them out again, etc. If you want to do a
semi-permanent 2WD conversion, then it starts making a little more sense. I
still don't think you're going to get a solid 2MPG increase, especially
since you won't experience any of the cold-weather operation that thickens
up the gear oil.
By the way - where's the desert in the south-east? :)

I am a "old timer" so to speak and I can rememebr when trucks had
lockout hubs optional and when I drove my 4x4s back then I could tell if
I forgot to unlock the front hubs because you could feel it and see it
in the fuel range. It can make a lot more difference than you think at
times. There is not excuse to make a 4x truck without the abilty to
completely diengage the front axle when in 2wd. How many 1000's or
barrels of fuel a day is wasted across the country from "dragging" the
front axle around in 2wd on a lot of the 4x4's out there. Also remember
that the ujoints in a solid front axle are not constant velocity in a
turn so when ever you turn the are straining to speed up and slow down
the axle shafts as they go thru each 360 degree revolution and the
sharper you turn, the more they strain, even without drive applied to
the axle (it is worse with drive applied)


-----------------
www.thesnoman.com

[John]

I totally agree. It makes absolutely no sense to spin a bunch of gears,
bearing, shafts, u-joints, and seals that should be at rest. Besides
the loss of mileage, how about wear and tear?

Is this another thing you have to give up to have a truck that is less
expensive than a Ford or GM product? Or do they also have full-time
locked hubs. At the very least, why not offer it as an option?

I remember my 80 F-150 had locking hubs. If they were engaged, you
could feel it in the steering wheel. It made a bit more noise. It also
needed a little more force on the brake pedal to stop it. Unlocked gave
you a noticeable difference in gas mileage as well as a smoother ride.

Dynatrac does offer a kit, but at $1500, it's not cost effective. At
$330 savings per year, payback in five years isn't worth it.

[TheSnoMan]

Post by John
I totally agree. It makes absolutely no sense to spin a bunch of gears,
bearing, shafts, u-joints, and seals that should be at rest. Besides
the loss of mileage, how about wear and tear?
Is this another thing you have to give up to have a truck that is less
expensive than a Ford or GM product? Or do they also have full-time
locked hubs. At the very least, why not offer it as an option?
I remember my 80 F-150 had locking hubs. If they were engaged, you
could feel it in the steering wheel. It made a bit more noise. It also
needed a little more force on the brake pedal to stop it. Unlocked gave
you a noticeable difference in gas mileage as well as a smoother ride.
Dynatrac does offer a kit, but at $1500, it's not cost effective. At
$330 savings per year, payback in five years isn't worth it.

Ford offers lockout hubs on some SD models and GM disconnects the right
front axle shaft so the other side spins off in spider gears and ring
and pinion does not move (not perfect but a lot better than taking every
thing along) Dodge missed a perfect opertunity to "fix" this problem in
03 when they started using a new front axle in 2500 and 3500 4x4 trucks
built for them by AAM (the one that made the tried and trued 10.5 inch
14 bolt for GM for years and the then new 11.5 that GM uses in 2500 and
3500 trucks and GM's IFS front drive axles) It uses the same 9.25 ring
and pinion as used in GM IFS in 2500 and 3500 trucks but Dodge spec'd it
to have no disconnect or ablity to support lockout hubs. It is a shame
because it is a very stout axle but has no support to disconnect the
axles in 2wd with a redesign.

-----------------
www.thesnoman.com

[Big Al]

Post by TheSnoMan

Post by John
I totally agree. It makes absolutely no sense to spin a bunch of gears,
bearing, shafts, u-joints, and seals that should be at rest. Besides
the loss of mileage, how about wear and tear?
Is this another thing you have to give up to have a truck that is less
expensive than a Ford or GM product? Or do they also have full-time
locked hubs. At the very least, why not offer it as an option?
I remember my 80 F-150 had locking hubs. If they were engaged, you
could feel it in the steering wheel. It made a bit more noise. It also
needed a little more force on the brake pedal to stop it. Unlocked gave
you a noticeable difference in gas mileage as well as a smoother ride.
Dynatrac does offer a kit, but at $1500, it's not cost effective. At
$330 savings per year, payback in five years isn't worth it.

Ford offers lockout hubs on some SD models and GM disconnects the right
front axle shaft so the other side spins off in spider gears and ring and
pinion does not move (not perfect but a lot better than taking every thing
along) Dodge missed a perfect opertunity to "fix" this problem in 03 when
they started using a new front axle in 2500 and 3500 4x4 trucks built for
them by AAM (the one that made the tried and trued 10.5 inch 14 bolt for
GM for years and the then new 11.5 that GM uses in 2500 and 3500 trucks
and GM's IFS front drive axles) It uses the same 9.25 ring and pinion as
used in GM IFS in 2500 and 3500 trucks but Dodge spec'd it to have no
disconnect or ablity to support lockout hubs. It is a shame because it is
a very stout axle but has no support to disconnect the axles in 2wd with a
redesign.
-----------------

Any hub conversions for the AAM front axle?

Al

[SnoMan]

Post by Big Al
Any hub conversions for the AAM front axle?
Al

Been trying to find one, few leads but nothing concrete

[Tom Lawrence]

Post by SnoMan

Post by Big Al
Any hub conversions for the AAM front axle?

Been trying to find one, few leads but nothing concrete

Dynatrac now has a kit available. Some guys over on the TDR worked with
them to get this developed, and several have already purchased and installed
kits. You can read all about it here:

http://www.turbodieselregister.com/forums/showthread.php?t=96948

Or just call Dynatrac at 714-596-4461 and get the info. straight from them.
Be forewarned - I hear it's an $1,800 (retail) kit.

[TheSnoMan]

Post by Tom Lawrence

Post by SnoMan

Post by Big Al
Any hub conversions for the AAM front axle?

Been trying to find one, few leads but nothing concrete

Dynatrac now has a kit available. Some guys over on the TDR worked with
them to get this developed, and several have already purchased and installed
http://www.turbodieselregister.com/forums/showthread.php?t=96948
Or just call Dynatrac at 714-596-4461 and get the info. straight from them.
Be forewarned - I hear it's an $1,800 (retail) kit.

I have Emailed them for more info on it a few days ago but no responce
yet. Kinda strange.

-----------------
www.thesnoman.com

[Tom Lawrence]

Post by TheSnoMan
I have Emailed them for more info on it a few days ago but no responce
yet. Kinda strange.

Lots of companies like that are slow to respond to e-mails... give 'em a
call - you'll get the info. much quicker

If you look through that thread on TDR (the last 3 pages or so), you'll come
across a person's name and direct phone number at Dynatrac that was taking
the orders for this kit.

[Big Al]

Post by Tom Lawrence

Post by TheSnoMan
I have Emailed them for more info on it a few days ago but no responce
yet. Kinda strange.

Lots of companies like that are slow to respond to e-mails... give 'em a
call - you'll get the info. much quicker
If you look through that thread on TDR (the last 3 pages or so), you'll
come across a person's name and direct phone number at Dynatrac that was
taking the orders for this kit.

Called them this afternoon. They are sending me the info. Any idea where I
can find some illustrations of the stock setup?

Al

2004 CTD

[c***@metronet.com]

Don't forget to factor in the $$$ lost that you paid originally for 4x4
that will be a complete loss when you go to trade it in or sell it ...
unless of course you are planning to put it back together. In that
case, factor in time and frustration to undo then redo.


Craig C.

[proteusdiver]

Post by John
What was Dodge thinking when they decided to get rid of locking hubs??

Have you ever had to go knee deep in mud to find the f@#!! hubs to
engage 4 wheel drive?

Personally I prefer to have slightly increased consumption in order to
have (almost) instant 4x4 availability than to have the added
complication of the locking hubs.

Again, that's me... (And by the way, in Greece we 're paying about 4,5$
per gallon for some YEARS now... Oil will NOT be cheap for some time so
get used to the idea...)

[John]

The idea of locking hubs is having the ability to drive on paved roads
and highway, where most people to 99% of their driving, with the front
differential disconnected from the wheels.

If mud is even remotely possible, you leave them locked. But the rest
of the time you drive, you leave them unlocked. I know when I'll be off
road in advance. Besides, there isn't much mud in the desert.

When I lived in the NorthEast, I only needed the hubs locked on a
regular basis during the snow season, December, January, and February.
The the other nine months of dry weather, I still had to have the front
differential working for no reason.

Speaking of Greece, I have a house in Greece, just outside of Athens
(Byronas). I have a tiny car there with a tiny engine. There is a tax
when you buy a car with an engine bigger than 1.8 L. This car gets goog
enough mileage with a 1.4 L engine that I dont have to worry about the
price of fuel.

With Greece's lack of super-highways (besides the one that goes to the
airport) and constant traffic, small engines are fine there. Besides,
Athens has a mass transit system almost as extensive as NYC. The busses
and trains cover the city well.

Where I live, in Arizona, there is no mass transit. Highways cover the
area well. Due to how spread out everything is here, everything is far
away. I drive 500 miles per week, so at $3 per gallon, I have to go for
every mile per gallon I can. I can stand the inconvenience of locking
and unlocking my hubs once or twice a month when I do go off road.
Saving wear and tear is nice too.

By the way, fuel prices in Greece proove that national politics have
little to do the price of fuel. Greece has always had a pro-Arab stance
in the world political theatre. Yet, they have always paid a lot more
for fuel than we do.

[TheSnoMan]

Post by proteusdiver

Post by John
What was Dodge thinking when they decided to get rid of locking hubs??

engage 4 wheel drive?
Personally I prefer to have slightly increased consumption in order to
have (almost) instant 4x4 availability than to have the added
complication of the locking hubs.
Again, that's me... (And by the way, in Greece we 're paying about 4,5$
per gallon for some YEARS now... Oil will NOT be cheap for some time so
get used to the idea...)

What is so darn hard about getting out and locking the hubs BEFORE you
drive through a mud hole? Be driving 4x4 for about 35 years now and
Dodge wants to make as much of a no brainer to use as possible to try to
sell more of them and how many 1000's of barrels a fuel a day is wasted
because Dodge is to cheap to put them on?. Then there is all the
needless wear and tear on the front drive axle that is not even needed
99% of the time. Yeah really great idea not to have them on a truck and
instead have that bastard hub the is a pill to work on if bearings or
ujoints need service! We cussed at those things in the 70's when Dodge
came out with them too.

[John]

Ditto what Sno said! Years ago I was the only one of my friends that
had a Ford. It had locking hubs and their GMs didn't. They made fun of
me when I would pull over and lock my hubs when the snow started or to
go off road. They were convinced their full time hubs were better. Till
I pointed out to them that my 200,000 mile F150 was still on its
original front differential seals, bearings, gears, ujoints, AND oil.

[Tom Lawrence]

Post by John
I pointed out to them that my 200,000 mile F150 was still on its
original front differential seals, bearings, gears, ujoints, AND oil.

And it's 3rd engine, 2nd transmission, 4th T-case... :)

[TheSnoMan]

Post by Tom Lawrence

Post by John
I pointed out to them that my 200,000 mile F150 was still on its
original front differential seals, bearings, gears, ujoints, AND oil.

And it's 3rd engine, 2nd transmission, 4th T-case... :)

My 89 4x4 burb is still all factory issue after 175k and still going
strong. You are doing something wrong big time. I can get 200k plus out
of a engine and trans regularly and have on other vehicles too. This one
has been cross country and across the rockies more than a dozen times too.


-----------------
www.thesnoman.com

[Tom Lawrence]

Post by TheSnoMan
strong. You are doing something wrong big time.

Nope, I'm doing something right. I've never (intentionally) owned a Ford
:)

You really need to stop taking everything so seriously.

[TheSnoMan]

Post by Tom Lawrence

Post by TheSnoMan
strong. You are doing something wrong big time.

Nope, I'm doing something right. I've never (intentionally) owned a Ford
:)
You really need to stop taking everything so seriously.

So I should post BS answers then?

-----------------
www.thesnoman.com

[Tom Lawrence]

Post by TheSnoMan
So I should post BS answers then?

As opposed to... ?

[John]

Sorry to disappoint you but that 1980 Ford F-150 was on its original
engine (4.9L 6 cyl), transmission, and tranfer case. The only major
repair I made was replacing the rear tranny seal and the clutch
replaced twice.

I also had a 1990 Ford Bronco. 180,000 miles with zero problems.

Luckily, my 2003 Dodge is also trouble free after 43,000 miles on it.

I agree with the Snow guy, if you're using up engines, trannies, and
tranfer cases that fast, look for your problem with the driver, not the
drive.

With today's lemon laws, no manufacturer is going to sell a product
they may have to buy back. In my opinion, Ford is usually a better
product than Dodge. But this time the reputation of the Cummins sold
me. The softer ride of the 2500 vs the F250 also sold me.

And, by the very nature of this thread, less cylinders = less moving
parts, is a good thing.

[TheSnoMan]

Post by John
And, by the very nature of this thread, less cylinders = less moving
parts, is a good thing.

In theory, two internal combustion engines of same displacement but
different number of cylinders, the one with less cylinders will be more
fuel efficent because of less surface are for heat loss from expanding
gasses

-----------------
www.thesnoman.com

[Tom Lawrence]

Post by TheSnoMan
What is so darn hard about getting out and locking the hubs BEFORE you
drive through a mud hole?

Simple case in point: about two weeks after purchasing my '03 3500, I was
driving to a friend's house. Coming down the road was a tractor pulling a
BIG trailer full of hay bales. It was pretty wide, and the road was narrow.
I decided to pull over and give him room. Unknown to me, that wasn't all
grass alongside the road - there was a ditch dug in there, covered with
grass. The right side of the truck dropped about two feet - enough that the
skid plate was doing it's job. (Incidentally, the tractor passed by with
only about 10" to spare). Without 4WD, I never would have been able to
drive out, and if I had manual hubs, probably couldn't even get to the
passenger side to lock it. Instead, I just flipped the knob, and eased it
out and back onto the road (then spent about 40 minutes hosing all the mud
off of my brand-new truck :)